Americain and Glass HarmoniumBreeding

Dusty

Any ideas to were there going for stud duties?

goose

Would be great too see Glass Harmonium here the sireline has fired here for a long time and he is high class could probably come over and win the Fruit and Veg before he stands at stud.
Hope Americain and Green Moon get every chance in ES to throw stayers Green Moon would probably be better of in NZ where Montjeu was great.

Dusty

I could see a few staying stallions going to stud in the next few years but I cannot help but think that somehow they will end up in NZ but you never know.

GH would be interesting if he ended up in WA but who ever got him here (hypothetically) they'd want a small mortgage for his services.

Theodor

Unfortunately GH is a lunatic. This will work against him big time. We looked into securing him for WA but were advised strongly against this. Trainers will not go for him. That said what a magnificent looking horse they was top tier

IntoIt

Shame.....were Verglas hot horses or is it the dam side? Helenus were/was the same i beleive. When i hear his new stud saying what a wonderful temperament Helenus has.... =)) Maybe you could get him for a bargain price! Saw a similar comment made for Musket. Is this true?

SPUDLEY

HELENUS has a good temperament what a joke almost lost a finger to him while working at Heytesbury plus was a mongrel to rug needed eyes in the back of my head half the time

goose

Shame that what sort of service would you expect Glass Harmonium to stand for? hasnt there been alot of successful stallions in the past with nasty temperaments? trainers would get interested when they keep winning

IntoIt

My point exactly Goose. GH may breed lambs! Another nasty, nasty horse was Sir Tristram....maybe we could put the funds together here on PTT =)) Darshaan, which is in GH dams side is 8th on the broodmares sire list.

goose

Ahh one of the blokes in thread could put the funds together ... we could support him ..

Dusty

There's been alot a crazy mares that were champion race horses, should we not breed from them?
Stallions like wise.
I remember that written tycoon was offered to some WA studs and no one wanted him :(
WA is happy to get a international horse or the poor brother to a good horse.
Sell them all and buy a genuine grp1 stallion with a stallions pedigree.
I know that I'll cop flak for my comments but it's the truth, there is no and probaly won't be a horse like Wanted, All American, snitzel, Durpoth, etc coming here anytime soon and it's this kind of horse WA needs if the breeding industry within WA is ever going to be taken serious.
I stand by these comments.

HenleyBrook

Out of curiousity, knowing that Glass Harmonium has had two throat operations, would any breeders be keen to send their mares to him? Into It, i made that comment about Musket from what i observed on race days when i saw him. He would sweat up and go bananas. In saying this some horses are completley different animals in a stable atmosphere compared to race day where theres music and yahooligans eg.

annandale

Interesting comments Dusty
The simple fact is the stallions you mentioned would struggle to get the required number of mares at their respective service fees to be financially viable if they stood in WA.
It is ironic that you mention Wanted and Duporth .
WA has a second season stallion that defeated both these stallions each time they raced.
That stallion is Demerit who stands for a service fee $5500.
Only one quarter the service fee of the aformentioned stalllions.
Arguably he would stand in the Eastern States for a higher fee and higher demand.
( i declare a financial interest
in Demerit)

IntoIt

I suppose the attraction for GH is that Verglas did such a wonderful job here. What type of wind ops were they? How much of an influence/heriditary factor do you think they have? Different wind problems have different influences eg roarers occur in large animals only on the left? side but why is not known properly. Soft pallette can occer in unfit animals and doesnt happen again when fit, bad throat structure,etc etc....but you know what...it still happens so what breeding line out there is it coming from? What faults do occur in different breed lines? Would you knowingly breed from /with a bleeder? THATS one that worries me, but is it hereditary?
Maybe the reason Musket was like that, is because he has problems.....physical leading to mental....
Agree with Demerit.

darkshines

Gee I dunno, not sure if Verglas did THAT great a job that you'd want a son of his as a sire?

Danetime was exponentially better, and even his sons have struggled for a place in the sun. Interestingly Myboycharlie seemed to be well recieved over east (without anyone knowning WTF Danetime was over there).

wedge

oh poor ol GH, been bashed before he has a chance....

HB, throat conditions are physiologial and not transferred genetically. (lets hope for so you think that this is the case) both horses go very very well for horses that cant breathe properly. the horse performed very well at carnival level, with the hooligans and the music.

waiting for someone to tell me he's a stayer and his only group wins have been over ground... woops, premier stallion in perth won 1 group 1 over 2500m, apparently can throw 2 year olds as well?

the horse carries one of the most successful crosses in t/b breeding in saddlers wells/ darshaan, a cross that you will not find anywhere in australia in a stallion.

he is not a danzig/ danehill horse which i can only see as a positive.

he can sprint and go over ground, demonstrated this preparation, great run 1st up over 1400

yep, the horse is a handfull, but they had to wear crash helmets to handle sir tristram, didnt stop him... tribu, ihtiram, helenus, trade fair not far off, no doubt GH would be a touch harder...

the biggest prob with this horse is that he is a rig and you might find you cannot get the most (if anything)out of him as the fig trapped high in the body has increased temperature and can add to issues with fertility, a risk as an investment!

as a hobby breeder/ owner, i think we need more bulls like this in the state... the breeding here is very one dimensional sprinting types...

if i were in the market i would buy into this horse.... cracking tyoe, great action, the kenmare line is proven over and over again in this state and he provides the will to win and tenacity like i havent seen in a horse for a long time. he doesnt want to beat his opponents, he wants to eat them.....

so is he all that bad?...

HenleyBrook

I wasn't bagging GH at all. I was just curious to see what other breeders thought about breeding to a stallion which has had a wind deficiency and whether it would put them off or not. Alot of the time breeders dont know the background to a stallion such as whether they are bleeders, have bad feet eg. eg. GH's pedigree is faultless and rare.

Certain stallions stamp their traites on their progeny. For example, Oratorio's youngsters are renowned for not going shin sore. The Scandal Keeper yearlings are kind and are very smart animals. Are both these traites for both these stallions shear coincedance? No is the answer.

I suppose the uncertainty around breeding is the reason why it is so fascinating and interesting! You don't know what your going to get! reading on the forum about Wilson's breeding venture to produce Travinator is a story in itself!

Dusty

I agree about Demerit and I have spoken to people that know him well when racing.
That's one!
I'd use him over Alfred Noble and some others in WA but every new stallion is a brother of or by "this".
I sent mares to touchstone a few times and had serious (genuine) problems in service so once burnt twice shy.
Good service at Mungerup but oratorio is over priced now and he's really only a stallion for the stud and there mares.
WA just needs two more options (top liners).

wedge

sorry HB, didnt mean to come across that harsh and certainly didnt mean to direct any comments to you.

interesting observation about the oratorios not going shin sore, have we had a good early 2yo oratorio since gold rocks?

HenleyBrook

All good wedge! I thought it wasnt directed at me but it is healthy debate at the end of the day :).

Oratorio has thrown cosistant metro winners but he hasnt thrown a genuine top line group 1 performer (not winner) and is being given every chance in the barn with the top line mares he is getting. whereas stallions like Mosayter (travinator) Viscount (Rocketman) Key Business (Barakey) Ihtaram (Miss Andretti) have all thrown a top line galloper.

In saying this, oratorio has had some average 2 year olds since Gold Rocks which haven't really gone on to do anything really but the ones coming on this season and the next will be a nice bunch ;).

I can't afford to go to Oratorio but i much rather a stallion like Kendel Star, Viscount, trade fair, or Husson Lightning who are a fraction of oratorios fee and are doing the same sort of job on the track.

DamienWyer

Oratorio's fertility is also a concern. Even if you can afford the asking price, the number of mares he gets in foal makes it an even higher risk for the Breeder.

clevermother

Damien have you ever personally financially bred horses for over $1,500 dollars, participants in the industry who patronise these quality bulls recieve fiscal returns

I firmly believe your personality in thoroughbreds is making statements and theories based on terrible public relations

DamienWyer

clevermother said:

Damien have you ever personally financially bred horses for over $1,500 dollars, participants in the industry who patronise these quality bulls recieve fiscal returns

I firmly believe your personality in thoroughbreds is making statements and theories based on terrible public relations

So should I just go jump off a bridge now ?

Next ?

scenic11

Damien Wyer said:

Oratorio's fertility is also a concern. Even if you can afford the asking price, the number of mares he gets in foal makes it an even higher risk for the Breeder.

What are his fertility stats like?

DamienWyer

4 of the last 6 seasons, Oratorio (AUS) has been less than 80%. One season right on 80% and one at 86%.

By comparison, Blackfriars has only once in 10 years dipped below 80%.

It's just an observation that I pass onto anyone asking advice. If you don't factor it in as a risk then you may easily miss a complete year.

Now people such as 'clevermother' may find this objectionable but I like to minimise risk.

ICE

Damien Wyer said:

clevermother said:

Damien have you ever personally financially bred horses for over $1,500 dollars, participants in the industry who patronise these quality bulls recieve fiscal returns

I firmly believe your personality in thoroughbreds is making statements and theories based on terrible public relations

So should I just go jump off a bridge now ?

Next ?

??

scenic11

Damien Wyer said:

4 of the last 6 seasons, Oratorio (AUS) has been less than 80%. One season right on 80% and one at 86%.

By comparison, Blackfriars has only once in 10 years dipped below 80%.

It's just an observation that I pass onto anyone asking advice. If you don't factor it in as a risk then you may easily miss a complete year.

Now people such as 'clevermother' may find this objectionable but I like to minimise risk.

It is always good to minimise risks with breeding, it is risky enough as it is.
Thanks for that info, it is something to take into account.

Tivers

Blackfriars is a freak, fertility wise.
Not a very fair comparison.

[DeletedUser]

Damien Wyer said:

4 of the last 6 seasons, Oratorio (AUS) has been less than 80%. One season right on 80% and one at 86%.

By comparison, Blackfriars has only once in 10 years dipped below 80%.

It's just an observation that I pass onto anyone asking advice. If you don't factor it in as a risk then you may easily miss a complete year.

Now people such as 'clevermother' may find this objectionable but I like to minimise risk.

You like to minimise risk Damo, but using your cash, where would you send your mare ?
Length of rein, type, hock shape. ? Do they play a part in your selection ?

[DeletedUser]

Let's be honest, if you are like me, you send your mare to the stallion that you can afford. You look at the stats, the type etc. but you trim your cloth to what you can afford at the time.

coastalchill

Yes and you were very lucky at the time there was a stallion that bred all that and a pedigree to die for that WA people didn't give a chance so was at a low stud fee.....mmm will probably happen again[not].Anymore Kenmare mares around?

IntoIt

Bu t CC, is'nt that just symptomatic of the breeding industry.....Mungrup should have loved Moysater, having Metal Storm mares by Kenmare and Kenvain by Kenmare.....Tribu by Kenmare. Should be a heap of Kenmare mares around.....Such a shame Moysater has gone east. Talk about shoot ourselves in the foot.
PS iv'e got a winning Kenvain mare