Moonee Valley Cup/Cox Plate Day.East Coast Racing

hash

funnily enough and i'm glad you mentioned him PC, I had a facebook memory pop up on my feed the other day and it was a status I posted nearly 10 years ago saluting to SYT and how good he was (best at the time) to win his 2nd cox plate at just his 10th start then to jump 1200m from the McKinnon into the melb cup less than a week after and run 3rd was the most impressive training effort by the legend in JB i'd ever seen

PC

hash said:

funnily enough and i'm glad you mentioned him PC, I had a facebook memory pop up on my feed the other day and it was a status I posted nearly 10 years ago saluting to SYT and how good he was (best at the time) to win his 2nd cox plate at just his 10th start then to jump 1200m from the McKinnon into the melb cup less than a week after and run 3rd was the most impressive training effort by the legend in JB i'd ever seen

Great horse he was and for some reason he bought me so much more joy then what Winx does and I am not sure why. What annoys me is how the media and a lot of racin fans dismiss or forget the past champs from years gone by. I love Winx...I really do but as I have said many times...she is (not her fault) racing in a very weak era in terms of qualityand depth in numbers. When it comes to quality in numbers...2000m onwards racing in Australia is very poor at the moment. The fact that B and C Grade horses from overseas come to Australia and win Group 1s says it all.

On the world stage - when it comes to depth/quality in numbers at 2000m onwards....Australia falls well short in this regard. Australia's obsession with speed and making quick return has done this and also colts being retired too early to stud.

Its so sad in my opinion...lets think back to the 80s, 90s, early to mid 2000s up to about 2010...it was stronger then in terms of 2000m-3200m racing in Australia...but now...its honestly sad

Remember Sunline..she had to race against Lohnro and Northerly. Stronger opposition back then.

spinking

PC in the paper the other day it said that she had beaten 60 individual group 1 winners is that stat correct?

hash

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

therealkramer

I think So You Think is arguably better than Black Caviar-by the fact he won his 1st Cox Plate at his 5th start and his 2md at his 10th. Still think Winx is better though. Won a Doncaster(gave 6kg to Happy Clapper) & Epsom. SYT was really only effective from 1800-2100m and was thrown in at the weights in the Melbourne Cup with 56kg

PC

spinking said:

PC in the paper the other day it said that she had beaten 60 individual group 1 winners is that stat correct?

Correct mate. But So You Think beat Workforce who was an Arc and Derby winner and Timeform rated Workforce 133.

So You Think's best Timeform rating was 133 - when he beat Workforce.

I reckon So You Think beat better horses in Europe then what Winx has beaten in Australia (apart from Highland Reel and Benbatl)

PC

therealkramer said:

I think So You Think is arguably better than Black Caviar-by the fact he won his 1st Cox Plate at his 5th start and his 2md at his 10th. Still think Winx is better though. Won a Doncaster(gave 6kg to Happy Clapper) & Epsom. SYT was really only effective from 1800-2100m and was thrown in at the weights in the Melbourne Cup with 56kg

So You Think also won the Memsie Stakes at 1400m (when it was a G2).

PC

hash said:

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

I agree but also I dont think we will see a horse as good as So You Think in terms of winning five G1s in both hemispheres.

Let me leave that thought with you ladies and gentlemen...it really is an oustanding effort on the world racing stage which is bigger then the Australian racing stage.

He was an absolute champion and hopefully his career is recognised with an induction into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame one day

therealkramer

PC said:

hash said:

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

I agree but also I dont think we will see a horse as good as So You Think in terms of winning five G1s in both hemispheres.

Let me leave that thought with you ladies and gentlemen...it really is an oustanding effort on the world racing stage which is bigger then the Australian racing stage.

He was an absolute champion and hopefully his career is recognised with an induction into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame one day

Three of those were in Ireland though. The first of which SYT was a 1/7 fav in a field of 5 runners. If Winx had run in the Arc, Breeders Cup & Dubai World Cup and finished out of the placings we would say she underwhelmed. Also did STY really beat that much? I wouldn't class Workforce as one of the better Arc winners. His 7l Derby victory(rated 132) was probably his best. Winx would have been rising 7 if she'd gone to the UK this year to take on Cracksman(4yo), Roaring Lion(3yo) or Enable(4yo). She'd have been competitive on the world stage at her best and even now in the twilight of her career, I still think she'd have destroyed anything and everything that raced at the Royal Ascot meeting. 

PC

therealkramer said:

PC said:

hash said:

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

I agree but also I dont think we will see a horse as good as So You Think in terms of winning five G1s in both hemispheres.

Let me leave that thought with you ladies and gentlemen...it really is an oustanding effort on the world racing stage which is bigger then the Australian racing stage.

He was an absolute champion and hopefully his career is recognised with an induction into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame one day

Three of those were in Ireland though. The first of which SYT was a 1/7 fav in a field of 5 runners. If Winx had run in the Arc, Breeders Cup & Dubai World Cup and finished out of the placings we would say she underwhelmed. Also did STY really beat that much? I wouldn't class Workforce as one of the better Arc winners. His 7l Derby victory(rated 132) was probably his best. Winx would have been rising 7 if she'd gone to the UK this year to take on Cracksman(4yo), Roaring Lion(3yo) or Enable(4yo). She'd have been competitive on the world stage at her best and even now in the twilight of her career, I still think she'd have destroyed anything and everything that raced at the Royal Ascot meeting. 

I dont think Winx wins an Arc. Workforce in my opinion was a quality horse. Winx would win overseas at 1600m - 2000m in m opinion.

therealkramer

PC said:

therealkramer said:

PC said:

hash said:

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

I agree but also I dont think we will see a horse as good as So You Think in terms of winning five G1s in both hemispheres.

Let me leave that thought with you ladies and gentlemen...it really is an oustanding effort on the world racing stage which is bigger then the Australian racing stage.

He was an absolute champion and hopefully his career is recognised with an induction into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame one day

Three of those were in Ireland though. The first of which SYT was a 1/7 fav in a field of 5 runners. If Winx had run in the Arc, Breeders Cup & Dubai World Cup and finished out of the placings we would say she underwhelmed. Also did STY really beat that much? I wouldn't class Workforce as one of the better Arc winners. His 7l Derby victory(rated 132) was probably his best. Winx would have been rising 7 if she'd gone to the UK this year to take on Cracksman(4yo), Roaring Lion(3yo) or Enable(4yo). She'd have been competitive on the world stage at her best and even now in the twilight of her career, I still think she'd have destroyed anything and everything that raced at the Royal Ascot meeting. 

I dont think Winx wins an Arc. Workforce in my opinion was a quality horse. Winx would win overseas at 1600m - 2000m in m opinion.

She's not a 2400m horse though. But for argument's sake, I think Enable & Cracksman are both better than Workforce and Waller seems to think Winx could have won a Melbourne Cup-she's probably have had to do it after her first CP victory though. SYT had 56kg and that was before he even collected his 2nd CP so he got in light. Very light. And yet class couldn't get him over the line

JayJay

Steven Arnold rode So You Think magnificently, superb rider but in that Melbourne Cup.......don't go until the clocktower, don't go until the clocktower......I found the last 200m of that race cruel to watch and still do.I was a huge wrap for STY, a stunning animal.

PC

therealkramer said:

PC said:

therealkramer said:

PC said:

hash said:

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

I agree but also I dont think we will see a horse as good as So You Think in terms of winning five G1s in both hemispheres.

Let me leave that thought with you ladies and gentlemen...it really is an oustanding effort on the world racing stage which is bigger then the Australian racing stage.

He was an absolute champion and hopefully his career is recognised with an induction into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame one day

Three of those were in Ireland though. The first of which SYT was a 1/7 fav in a field of 5 runners. If Winx had run in the Arc, Breeders Cup & Dubai World Cup and finished out of the placings we would say she underwhelmed. Also did STY really beat that much? I wouldn't class Workforce as one of the better Arc winners. His 7l Derby victory(rated 132) was probably his best. Winx would have been rising 7 if she'd gone to the UK this year to take on Cracksman(4yo), Roaring Lion(3yo) or Enable(4yo). She'd have been competitive on the world stage at her best and even now in the twilight of her career, I still think she'd have destroyed anything and everything that raced at the Royal Ascot meeting. 

I dont think Winx wins an Arc. Workforce in my opinion was a quality horse. Winx would win overseas at 1600m - 2000m in m opinion.

She's not a 2400m horse though. But for argument's sake, I think Enable & Cracksman are both better than Workforce and Waller seems to think Winx could have won a Melbourne Cup-she's probably have had to do it after her first CP victory though. SYT had 56kg and that was before he even collected his 2nd CP so he got in light. Very light. And yet class couldn't get him over the line

I am not sure if Winx sees out the 3200m. I think she would be too brilliant in my opinion.

As for So You Think...56kg in the Melbourne Cup was the correct weight. He didnt stay the trip.

PC

JayJay said:

Steven Arnold rode So You Think magnificently, superb rider but in that Melbourne Cup.......don't go until the clocktower, don't go until the clocktower......I found the last 200m of that race cruel to watch and still do.I was a huge wrap for STY, a stunning animal.

Arnold could of ridden the horse a bit better and let him loose at the 250m mark...not at the 350m mark. But what didnt help SYT was that he pulled his head off for most of the race. He didnt really settle. You need a horse to settle for 2-miles.

To run 3rd at his first attempt past 2040m was an outstanding horse. He is probably the second best middle distance horse (Winx being first) in the modern era. Still though I honestly believe he would seriously give Winx a massive battle at 2000m. I have seen comments on social media (yes its true I hsve seen it) that Winx beats So You Think by ten lengths. I mean c'mon really....would that ever happen? Comments like that is so disrespectful to the champion So You Think I belive Winx beats So You Think by roughly 1.5 lengths and she does get the 2kgs mares allowance too.

PC

Ventura Storm broke the 2500m track record in the Moonee Valley Cup,the time was 2:34.37.

The previous best time was in the 2015 Moonee Valley Cup won by The United States...the time was 2:34.43

paraletic

My summation of the two days racing...... that track is rooted and biased to all hell, i wont bet there again. Lucky the great mare overcame that bias, but its taken the best mare we have seen to do it.

Hopefully the flemington carnival races fair for all. It has had a bais the last 2 carnivals as well.

therealkramer

PC said:

therealkramer said:

PC said:

therealkramer said:

PC said:

hash said:

don't be annoyed PC black caviar was the best horse i'd seen before Winx came along and even now she's a thing of the past... it's perfectly normal, but will we ever ever see one as good as Winx (4 cox plates etc)

I agree but also I dont think we will see a horse as good as So You Think in terms of winning five G1s in both hemispheres.

Let me leave that thought with you ladies and gentlemen...it really is an oustanding effort on the world racing stage which is bigger then the Australian racing stage.

He was an absolute champion and hopefully his career is recognised with an induction into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame one day

Three of those were in Ireland though. The first of which SYT was a 1/7 fav in a field of 5 runners. If Winx had run in the Arc, Breeders Cup & Dubai World Cup and finished out of the placings we would say she underwhelmed. Also did STY really beat that much? I wouldn't class Workforce as one of the better Arc winners. His 7l Derby victory(rated 132) was probably his best. Winx would have been rising 7 if she'd gone to the UK this year to take on Cracksman(4yo), Roaring Lion(3yo) or Enable(4yo). She'd have been competitive on the world stage at her best and even now in the twilight of her career, I still think she'd have destroyed anything and everything that raced at the Royal Ascot meeting. 

I dont think Winx wins an Arc. Workforce in my opinion was a quality horse. Winx would win overseas at 1600m - 2000m in m opinion.

She's not a 2400m horse though. But for argument's sake, I think Enable & Cracksman are both better than Workforce and Waller seems to think Winx could have won a Melbourne Cup-she's probably have had to do it after her first CP victory though. SYT had 56kg and that was before he even collected his 2nd CP so he got in light. Very light. And yet class couldn't get him over the line

I am not sure if Winx sees out the 3200m. I think she would be too brilliant in my opinion.

As for So You Think...56kg in the Melbourne Cup was the correct weight. He didnt stay the trip.

You can't be serious? The weights were released on Sept 1. He won 4 G1 races after that and couldn't be given more weight for those victories. He beat the handicapper and still couldn't win. I want to know a horse can run 2400m before i even entertain it getting 3200m.

HotJules

I always thought G Boss rode So You Think in the Cup!  Recreating history!