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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,481 posts
    ...and i would not have dreamed to ask him this morning... :shock:
  • showtimeshowtime    86 posts
    said:

    LE have you seen all the camera angles ?

    In a court of law they would have found McEvoy guilty with the evidence provided.

    You have a major gripe with Perth Racing, and rightly so, but it appears that any time there is a controversial issue you will take a stance.


    Have a discussion with a wide range of industry participants and you will find that views are very different with the protest.

    I would have been very happy with He's Remarkable winning as I had a decent investment on him at $9 but after seeing the vision I had no doubt the protest should have been upheld, but in honesty, I didn't think the stewards would go down that path as it was a decision that required a serious set of balls.

    I think Ranger was the horse most affected and in my opinion he should have won the race but Luckygray got closest and the interference was enough for me to see the objection entertained and as I have stated I would have rather had $3600 in my wallet.

    It is all opinion but we need not go down the path of total negativity. We have stewards who make decisions and we must abide by those decisions. Sure there are times we won't like those decisions but move on.

    perfect summation.... well said
  • SemipropunterSemipropunter    438 posts
    said:

    I wasnt going to chime in here....but we dont need visual evidence necessarily.

    This is why we interview the participants, to gather more evidence.

    So, the burning question for me is....what did P Harvey have to say about what happened? Did McEvoy shift out OR did Chui shift in OR was it both?

    The stewards may well have decided based on Harvey's evidence, which to this point, nobody knows what he said?

    IMO the video shows Pike tracking a run around the outside of WS, before that horse falls back directly into his path. Pike was not directly behind WS, so if the shift was from Chui on Big Ted or a combination surely WS would either be spat directly out the back or to the left. He isn't though, he shifts to the right suggesting the impact was from the inside.
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    I'm sorry but making a decision without conclusive vision to uphold a protest for referred interference in any race let alone a group 1 isn't courageous it is just plain foolish.

    If they have based it on conclusive vision and have irrefutuable evidence then surely they would have already released it and why deny interviews in regard to the decision after the race all of which would have cleared up the majority of the controversy surrounding this decision.

    Guess why they haven't released this, because they don't have conclusive vision that supports or provide justification for their decision
  • DarkDark    909 posts
    The fact remains, for all the evidence available to us, the stewards got that part of the protest correct - from all reports the vision even available to the stewards is iffy, however the jockeys in the room said Mcevoy caused it, and Mcevoy himself said he caused it. We at this stage have nothing else to go by other than the word of the jockeys.

    The question still remains however, was the interference enough to cost LUCKYGRAY winning the race.
  • LuckyLongshotsLuckyLongshots    4,270 posts
    edited November 2011
    said:

    LE, have you seen all the camera angles ?

    In a court of law they would have found McEvoy guilty with the evidence provided.

    You have a major gripe with Perth Racing, and rightly so, but it appears that any time there is a controversial issue you will take a stance.


    Have a discussion with a wide range of industry participants and you will find that views are very different with the protest.

    I would have been very happy with He's Remarkable winning as I had a decent investment on him at $9 but after seeing the vision I had no doubt the protest should have been upheld, but in honesty, I didn't think the stewards would go down that path as it was a decision that required a serious set of balls.

    I think Ranger was the horse most affected and in my opinion he should have won the race but Luckygray got closest and the interference was enough for me to see the objection entertained and as I have stated I would have rather had $3600 in my wallet.

    It is all opinion but we need not go down the path of total negativity. We have stewards who make decisions and we must abide by those decisions. Sure there are times we won't like those decisions but move on.

    Well said SP.

    Had WS not have stumbled when it did (for whatever reason) He's Remarkable would still be looking for a way out off the rail.

    He would not have been first past the post if he hadn't have got that perfect run at that exact moment.

    It is a shame they won't contest the KT Classic, but that is their loss, HR has more chance winning the KT Classic than the Doncaster!

    Had any one of those jockeys or horses behind HR been killed - we wouldn't be having this debate!
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,984 posts
    Had there been no interference to any runner, and all got a gap to run through, which is unlikely in a Group1. but having said all of that and looking at all the runs............. I think Waratah's Secret was the horse going forward into the race, I think he was most hardest done by. Ranger and Luckygray would have needed a lot of luck in the straight from where they were.

    But it doesn't matter now, the tote has paid out
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    edited November 2011
    Lucky you are again making assumptions.

    There is no way you or I anyone can argue that He's Remarkable doesnt get out the same way you cant know for sure that luckygray gets the same run through the field or that ranger doesnt get held up all of that is pure conjecture and you don't or shouldnt uphold protest in Groups 1's based upon conjecture and in the absence of conclusive vision that's exactly what they have done.

    McEvoy never admitted in the inquiry that he caused or was responsible for that interference either.

    Harvey 's trying to get elevated into the placings so he's not going to argue that the winner hasn't caused the interference either so that's hardly unbiased testimony if this had been a prosecutors case in court it would been laughed out of court.
  • LuckyLongshotsLuckyLongshots    4,270 posts
    LE - my statement is about the race, not the protest in question!

    It's done now - by the way how did Kincaple pull up (was a good run by him) big chance in the KT, on that run!
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    The stewards demand high standards of professionalism from every licensed person in the industry, why shouldnt the industry in turn demand the same standards from them.

    Trainers are deemed responsible for their horses even in their absence, yet we're supposed to just cop what was served up on Saturday in a Group 1 event with millions resting on the outcome of that decision.

    The whole affair was at best, amateurish.

    I fail to see why the industry consistently refuses to demand the same standards of accountability from officials as these same officials demand from the industry.
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    Fair enough Lucky you won't get any argument from me, Ranger was clearly the worst affected. But that's racing it's unfortuntate and not good for it to happen in a race like that let alone any race but for McEvoy to have been singled out by some as being solely responsible for this is just plain wrong especially when there is no conclusive evidence supporting that argument.
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    I Dont know how kincaple pulled up but it was a cracking run I spoke to mark earlier in the week and said you cant possibly win it but if you finish in the top 7 over that trip he'll have done an enormous job.
  • showtimeshowtime    86 posts
    said:

    Fair enough Lucky you won't get any argument from me, Ranger was clearly the worst affected. But that's racing it's unfortuntate and not good for it to happen in a race like that let alone any race but for McEvoy to have been singled out by some as being solely responsible for this is just plain wrong especially when there is no conclusive evidence supporting that argument.

    no conclusive evidence other than McEvoy saying he shifted out ? Chui held his 3 wide line cause he had no option to get in anyway because there wasnt a gap to get in... McEvoy shifts out which is how he went from sitting on the fence to peeling out 4 wide before the home bend. I agree Ranger was the worst effected but the fact that Luckygray did cop some of it and the margin was minimal then something had to come of it. You can make cases either way why or why it shouldnt have been upheld but to say McEvoy wasnt the main culprit after he stated he shifted out is wrong
  • SuburbanPunkSuburbanPunk    199 posts
    Did Mary wash her knickers today ?

    I hope so but others may be happy that she didn't.

    Mary, can you give us conclusive evidence that you washed your knickers today ?

    I am not convinced that I saw your knickers on the line. I saw something on the clothes line but I am not sure they were your knickers.

    Mary, I think you had better let everyone look at the knickers you are wearing now and we can judge.

    But alas, can we be convinced they are the knickers you were expected to wash.

    We expect professionalism Mary. Wash those knickers immediately and then we can judge and we will be the jury and we will of course be the executioner.
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    based upon what evidence is McEvoy the main culprit showtime?
    I must be watching a different video because immediately the interference has occurred and straight after the interference McEvoy and He's remarkable are in exactly the same the postion they were prior to the interference he doesnt do the old Malcolm Johnston trick look out boys I'm out of here and just gone bang and knocked everyone for six.

    Waratah's Secret of course has never over reacted and raced erratically during its career either please, the horse has a history of racing erratically and harvey sure as hell isnt goign to blame himslef or the horse jsut as marco isnt going to blame himself or his horse.
    Mc evoy has been a victim of some shocking falls himslef I seriously doubt he's going to deliberately endanger the lives of other by rding overtly aggressively in that sort of situation. No one has yet been able to offer a suitable explanation if McEvoy is responsible for this carnage why is he still in exactly same spot both prior to and after the interference if he's pushed out he would have kept going once the gap was there and he didn't.
    Again the bigger question now is and I raised this earlier why with the technology available today at probably the most important vantage point where it is desperately needed do we have to put up with such poor quality vision.
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    well suburban the stewards have acted as judge, jury and executioner in this instance and without the conclusive evidence to support their decision, a decision that was based upon referred washing of mary's knickers wink
  • SuburbanPunkSuburbanPunk    199 posts
    Dirty knickers now on the line.

    Well done Mary
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,984 posts
    said:

    Dirty knickers now on the line.

    Well done Mary

    Sorry Punk, but who was Mary riding ?
  • showtimeshowtime    86 posts
    said:

    based upon what evidence is McEvoy the main culprit showtime?
    I must be watching a different video because immediately the interference has occurred and straight after the interference McEvoy and He's remarkable are in exactly the same the postion they were prior to the interference he doesnt do the old Malcolm Johnston trick look out boys I'm out of here and just gone bang and knocked everyone for six.

    Waratah's Secret of course has never over reacted and raced erratically during its career either please, the horse has a history of racing erratically and harvey sure as hell isnt goign to blame himslef or the horse jsut as marco isnt going to blame himself or his horse.
    Mc evoy has been a victim of some shocking falls himslef I seriously doubt he's going to deliberately endanger the lives of other by rding overtly aggressively in that sort of situation. No one has yet been able to offer a suitable explanation if McEvoy is responsible for this carnage why is he still in exactly same spot both prior to and after the interference if he's pushed out he would have kept going once the gap was there and he didn't.
    Again the bigger question now is and I raised this earlier why with the technology available today at probably the most important vantage point where it is desperately needed do we have to put up with such poor quality vision.

    well big ted was in the same spot too and it was McEvoy who was making his move around the bend... and who said anything about waratahs racing manners and what has that go to do with anything?? you mistaking it for a soccer match and thinking it was taking a dive to get a penalty? the horse got clipped and had lacerations as well as luckygrey... the interference didnt happen on its own, someone had to be responsible ... you claim mcevoy was in the same spot but HE SAID HE SHIFTED OUT... he admitted guilt... maybe you should go and convince him he didnt.. go and represent him in court... move on mate
  • SuburbanPunkSuburbanPunk    199 posts
    The Wolf
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    Suburban I am sure like most people with any idea about racing they would consider Ron Dufficy one of the most if not the most astute race analyst in this country.

    He was arguing exactly the same point yesterday that I've been arguing from the outset and that is that based upon the available video evidence there is no way known that protest coild be upheld for indirect interference, he also labelled the stewards decision disgraceful.

    I also consider myself to be a fairly astute race analyst, I have to be otherwise my monthly bills don't get paid and until I see some video evidence that provides some semblance of proof that McEvoy caused the resulting carnage then as far I'm concerned it was a grossly incorrrect decision to uphold that protest and worse still the consequences of this decision will be enormous.
  • SuburbanPunkSuburbanPunk    199 posts
    As I have stated LE, I had something on He's Remarkable and I have no degree of dissent with the stewards decision.

    I reckon I have some idea on racing, albeit only a limited knowledge, and I believe that on what I saw and what the stewards saw they made the right decision.

    Did He's Remarkable deserve to win after that ride. I don't think so.

    It could have caused a dreadful fall. It almost did as Waratah's Secret just about came down.

    The jockeys were warned beforehand and we had one of the best in the business that erred.
  • lets_elopelets_elope    299 posts
    Punk
    Is that the harvey keitel wolf from Pulp fiction or the wolf from Little Red Riding Hood that Mary was riding?
  • FearlessKat123FearlessKat123    35 posts
    said:

    As I have stated LE, I had something on He's Remarkable and I have no degree of dissent with the stewards decision.

    I reckon I have some idea on racing, albeit only a limited knowledge, and I believe that on what I saw and what the stewards saw they made the right decision.

    Did He's Remarkable deserve to win after that ride. I don't think so.

    It could have caused a dreadful fall. It almost did as Waratah's Secret just about came down.

    The jockeys were warned beforehand and we had one of the best in the business that erred.

    True 8)
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,984 posts
    Having now seen the full replay several times, whereas previously I could only see the final 600M from side on. The interference really started coming together at 650M to go. So the Stewards saying about the 600M was really only an approximate, the actual squeeze rather than what led up to it was a bit further back.

    It does put things in a different light for me, but only to the extent that I can see where McEvoy moves away from the fence approaching the 600M point but before they hit the camber. Chui holds his line which gives Waratah's Secret some tightening. But the real problem is when they hit the camber, McEvoy follows the curve from his new position, but Chui comes across his line on a more acute angle completing the squeeze of Paul Harvey on WS. They were running on different lines in my opinion, Chui's line on Big Ted was cutting the corner off or coming back on top of WS. At this point WS then fell back on top of Ranger. Chui looks behind at the carnage and McEvoy says thank you very much and moves off the rails to the outside of the leading four runners.

    Previously I thought McEvoy had no case to answer, now I see that he contributed to the interference, however I think Chui on Big Ted slammed the door.

    In the years ahead, we may look back on this race as one for the dinner table discussion, I still think that most of the table will be divided on what should have happened.
  • VoodooVoodoo    1,369 posts
    Has there been any other protest upheld on the grounds of indirect interference ?

    cheers
  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    Finally got around to seeing it in close detail. My goodness, what an absolute howler. Not even close to being correct IMO. Interesting to see the posters defending it, some of the names are surprising. Patriotic bunch obviously . . . . .

    No doubt there are amatuerish aspects of even the most elite level of racing in this country (BC barrier move in Vic = farce). But WA just seems to balls it up FAR more often than others (Mendicity 3rd dead heat, was there even an enquiry into that?).

    Said it before and will say it again, with junk like this, WA racing will only ever be taken seriously by local stakeholders. To everyone else, it is a novel amusement where strange things can happen . . .
  • PieManPieMan    271 posts
    Look, if I live to 100, I'm still never going to agree with the decision. In saying that, my opinion isn't going to change anything. What's done is done.
    Even though I don't agree with it, I do have sympathy with Luckygray's connections. Unless they do some photo shopping, the winning photo will always have another horse in front of it. That is a shame.
    As an owner, my winning photos are my pride and joy. The winning photo isn't going to show the owners leading the horse in, or Shaun saluting on top of the horse.
  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    8,451 posts
    Sympathy with owners who have won megabucks... you're kidding Pie Man. They can always go back and set up a mock return to scale photo if they so desire or as you say photo shop it.

    The connections have the dosh and the trophy... and plenty of other photos of the horse winning. No sympathy required.
  • thefalconthefalcon    20,481 posts
    winners can smile...losers can do what they like... :wink:
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