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Survey what makes an attractive WA sire?

Breeding
ChristopherWildeChristopherWilde    21 posts
edited November -1 Breeding
Is it the reputation of the stud owner, or is this the truth that most enthusiasts involved in Perth racing follow?

Apart from John Chalmers, and Damon Gabbedy who have finances beyond their reputation, what beliefs are in the breeding community that go towards forming a decision when approaching the selection of a WA sire?

How many of you approach the issue on the back of another?
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Comments

  • Unknown
    What does finances beyond reputation mean?
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  • IntoItIntoIt    659 posts
    Perhaps he means that who so ever has the deepest pockets/most money can make the biggest noise/hype regardless of result!
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  • coastalchillcoastalchill    126 posts
    When putting any of my mares in foal,I have looked for the 5 most commercial sires in W.A. and then I check out the pedigree matches.Unfortunately it's scratching at 5.Putting my neck out at the moment does anyone really think there is a commercial sire in W.A. ie:one that the Eastern States breeders would sell the yearlings commercially over there in their MM or Inglis.Personally I think not.
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  • ChristopherWildeChristopherWilde    21 posts
    Pedigrees, is that computer software original?
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  • IntoItIntoIt    659 posts
    Blackfriars would be the most commercial stallion here. How he would go over east is hard to say but Perth does seem to be very much on it's lonesome.
    Moysayter could'nt get a look in here and yet goes east is promoted on bloodstock sites and other forums. And conversely, Henny Hughes comes here and gets dismissed because of the shift to WA. I still think he's ok though.
    Rogano comes from a nice, performed aussie family.
    And sometimes it's a matter of sticking with the strength of a commercial stud and their stallions because they are going to heavily promote them and you can "piggy back "them into a sale to sell your yearling.
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  • coastalchillcoastalchill    126 posts
    I really think W.A. is a harder market than the East.W.A.is very insular.Wont explain anymore or will sound mean spirited and Iknow some the breeders here do it tough.Good luck to Rangeview for bringing their new sire[seems ideal for our tracks].
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  • ChristopherWildeChristopherWilde    21 posts
    Instead of every year spending service fee dollars to a variety of Perth stallions would WA based thoroughbred investors be willing for an opportunity to purchase into a Gr-1 stallion.

    No software, no story tellers, potential for long term financial Australia wide yearling and racetrack success.

    What is the dollar figure you out there in the current market would throw towards a proposal of this nature
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  • coastalchillcoastalchill    126 posts
    I take it you would be looking for a large syndicate.More than money you obviously need mare numbers and there may not be a lot of small breeders who want to put all their broodmare eggs in one basket.Is the principle stallion owner prepared to put in a large number of mares with quality mares thrown in?Are you prepared to promote the stallion and follow through to yearlings for MM sales?Most importantly...will he be standing at a commercial , knowledgable stud?
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  • coastalchillcoastalchill    126 posts
    $25k plus 4 lifetime noms,per each investor.[just throwing it out there to start it off].
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  • ChristopherWildeChristopherWilde    21 posts
    said:

    $25k plus 4 lifetime noms,per each investor.[just throwing it out there to start it off].

    Coastal Chill is that for a metropolitan mid-week winner full-brother to a stakes winner.

    The bar code for that syndicate would have to be private.
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,988 posts
    You don't have to spend a lot of money to get a well performed shuttle Stallion. From as little as $100,000 x 3 years, I can secure a well performed International Sire from one of the World's great Stallion makers. But that is a lot of outside mares to start to begin to break even.
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  • IntoItIntoIt    659 posts
    "Well performed international sire " could be describing Henny Hughes and he is getting 2yo's. Also describes a lot of other stallions that lob here.
    And brothers of well perfomed sires...plenty of those about as well and not as good, try Danehill and his brother Nuclear Freeze etc etc
    May be Verglas son Glass Harmonium could be interesting, verglas throwing nearly all greys must make him quite prepotent.
    Just be careful what you wish for, but then if you snag the right one you could make a lot of money or make someone else rich :lol:
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  • ChristopherWildeChristopherWilde    21 posts
    Damien, your time in this thoroughbred industry has been fruitful for your career as a bloodstock agent, explain to the forum the world's great stallion maker, how many of this maker's stallions went national leading sire, their names and in what century?
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  • sconecupsconecup    62 posts
    when i was starting out, i looked after two horses, a full to danehill called eagle eyed- now in turkey and a son called danehill dancer. both stood for 5k. if coolmore and robert sangster couldnt work it out, no one in WA can. NO one.....
    keep guessing,
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    To get back to the original question - for a sire of horses to race in WA, I look for :
    1. Speed
    2. Soundness
    3. Longevity of performance (trained on)
    4.
    5.
    6.
    7.
    8. Performance in similar conditions
    9.
    10.
    11. Raffle the rest
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  • ChristopherWildeChristopherWilde    21 posts
    said:

    when i was starting out, i looked after two horses, a full to danehill called eagle eyed- now in turkey and a son called danehill dancer. both stood for 5k. if coolmore and robert sangster couldnt work it out, no one in WA can. NO one.....
    keep guessing,

    Sconecup you obviously are a well credentialled horseman, I find it hard to believe the late thoroughbred genius Colin Hayes wasnt the pivotal business partner in making the precise stallion selections.

    Its like Vinery's General Manager Mr Peter Orton, did he not direct the sire reputations at Segenhoe Stud and now presently, Vinery Australia.
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  • goosegoose    1,638 posts
    Starting to become a Trade Fair fan his good stayer during winter now the 3yr old with Brett Pope looks a star might be a Kingston Town Stakes horse the way he won last weekend in quick time and versatile.
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  • TheodorTheodor    199 posts
    You can add to Blackfriars, War Chant and Scandal Keeper as commercial stallions and with the right pedigree and mare type, Oratorio as commercial sires. Yes, I have an interest/association with WC and SC but one cannot deny they are commercial. As a heads up, a syndicate is likely to make an offer for a non-Danzig line stallion that is genuinely world class in the next few days to stand here in 2013. Basic stats are plus $40m in prize money, 71% winners to runners and in excess of 7% stakes winners to runners. His progeny have averaged well over $100,000 at yearling sales (and yearlings by this stallion total more than 400). I am part of the syndicate and the main driver behind making the offer (southern hemisphere rights) is to get an equivalent top 10 Hunter Valley stallion (in WA) that we can send our Danzig line mares to, instead of sending them East (if they don't suit Oratorio). Hopefully we will have some positive news in the next week or two.
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  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    Gee fair stats, 7% is impressive.
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,988 posts
    Those breeders lucky enough to have a nicely conformed Blackfriars at next years Magic Millions Sale in Perth, will do very well as he will not have a lot of stock for sale due to the recent clearances at the former Durham Lodge. So demand should see his average increase substantially.

    As far as War Chant and Scandal Keeper stocks go, I regard their numbers as a 'little soft'. So many of those yearlings will be offered in partnership with the breeder that the actual selling price will be artifically inflated and knowing that slows me down in bidding on their respective stocks.

    War Chant has to be taken on trust as essentially he is unproven in WA, he just stands for a lot of money, and that alone doesn't make a Stallion nor make him commercial.

    Scandal Keeper needs to have offspring that can go to the next level to justify his expected high selling prices in February. His stock will sell like there is no tomorrow, but they want to be doing something other than running places in WA black type events with the occasional win on a Saturday. I know that some will scream at hearing this, but in the thin air above $100,000 where quality yearlings sell, Scandal Keepers run into proven Stallions from the East Coast that even at twice that amount are still value for money.

    To my way of thinking, Oratorio (AUS) will be the big loser. His stock are just not performing past his second crop and the prices paid for them now seem excessive.

    In short, if you want to sell for $100,000 and above, you have to earn it.
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  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    edited October 2012
    Can I summarise?
    1 - Blackfriars throws too many ill-conformed stock
    2 - WC and SK $ numbers are pure lies
    3 - Even though pretty much every SK starting at the moment is doing something, peak performances of his stock are sh*t
    4 - Oratorio is finished
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  • goosegoose    1,638 posts
    Hard calls Darkshines dont know enough about Blackfriars stock but they keep winning good races. Scandal Keeper bit early to judge if they will go on as older horses other Danzig stallions that stood here their stock got better with age.
    Oratorio was thinking he was having a comeback with his older horses winning mile races lately.
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  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    Goose, mate, tongue in cheek
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  • goosegoose    1,638 posts
    Sorry :\">
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  • [DeletedUser][DeletedUser]    0 posts
    Scandal Keeper and Blackfriars are the two best stallions in this state at the moment.
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  • Piston_BrokePiston_Broke    2,047 posts
    Trade Fair is consistently getting winners
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  • HenleyBrookHenleyBrook    408 posts
    I personally think what Touchstone Farm did with bringing Danasinga to WA for a year was shear genius! he is the best stallion to touch down in WA in the past 5 years! Why doesn't WA studs shuttle proven eastern states group 1 winning/producing stallions which are "going out of fashion" and don't have the sorts of books they once did? there are so many over east it isn't funny. Plus you could put a fee of less than $10k for them. What are everyone's thoughts on that?
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  • TheodorTheodor    199 posts
    And until this season, SK had not covered commercial mares. Have a look at the breeding record of Espresso, the dam of Secret Scandal. I think Secret Scandal was Espresso's 9th foal. I don't think any of the first 8 foals were city winners.

    I think we will see Oratorio get a lot more winners. The progeny from the mares that were covered in his expensive years start to race next year. What we have at the moment are progeny from years 3 and 4 where he covered smaller books of lesser quality mates. Also I think breeders are working out the right type of mare and the right pedigrees to send to Oratorio.
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  • HenleyBrookHenleyBrook    408 posts
    I agree with you Theodor, we haven't seen the best of Orotorio yet. I also think Viscount will have some handy 3 year olds over the next two years. He got some good mares in 2010/2011.
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    As I always say - lot more to do with her than him !
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