Whip rule and protest

BobbyDavis · April 2014

I always thought that if the below is the case that the second horse's connections or the stewards could lodge a protest? The margin was short half head.

Race 4. Apprentice Jordan Mallyon (PARAMOUR) pleaded guilty to a charge under ARR.137A(5)(a)(i) for using the whip in a forehand manner on seven consecutive occasions prior to the 100m. Due to Apprentice Mallyon’s poor recent record in relation to this rule, which shows that he has been fined on five separate occasions since January 2014, his permit to ride in races was suspended for a period of 13 days to commence from midnight 20 April 2014 and to expire at midnight 2 May 2014.

RIO · April 2014

Is this a situation where the stewards should be putting in a protest on behalf of the punters???? As most trainers/connections are too busy watching their own mounts to be counting forehand or backhand whipping of other jockeys.

Can stewards do that???

AndrewCarter · April 2014

Rio I applaud the stewards here for basically ignoring the whip rule, we switched to padded whips that is more than enough, why let people who nothing about about racing ruin the sport, create unnecessary controversy and confusion and tell us what to do just because we're a soft and easy target.

The majority of people in racing look after their horses better than they look after themselves and those that don't get weeded out, the RSPCA have far more serious issues that they should be following up than the use of the whip in Australian racing.

therealkramer · April 2014

I want the old whips back and the old forehand whipping action =((

TheDiva · April 2014

They didn't exactly ignore the whip rule Andrew?

RIO · April 2014

Yep that is a nice discussion on whip usage...I'd personally like the option of being able to nominate one race a year where the jockey was allowed to use a tipped whip and have the horses racing down the straight with blood on their flanks from sharp spurs and bleeding shoulders from use of the persuader... ;)

But can I go back to my question.. Can stewards raise a protest on behalf of punters???

I had a brief look through the rules but if you don't know where to start it is a nightmare to find anything in amongst them.

Legless · April 2014

RIO said:
Yep that is a nice discussion on whip usage...I'd personally like the option of being able to nominate one race a year where the jockey was allowed to use a tipped whip and have the horses racing down the straight with blood on their flanks from sharp spurs and bleeding shoulders from use of the persuader... ;)

But can I go back to my question.. Can stewards raise a protest on behalf of punters???

I had a brief look through the rules but if you don't know where to start it is a nightmare to find anything in amongst them.

Try AR.137A.(9) and AR.164 ;)

Amyquil · April 2014

Andrew Carter said:
Rio I applaud the stewards here for basically ignoring the whip rule, we switched to padded whips that is more than enough, why let people who nothing about about racing ruin the sport, create unnecessary controversy and confusion and tell us what to do just because we're a soft and easy target.

Here we go again. How many times have we read it?

Stewards don't need to enforce a rule because Andrew disagrees with it.

Andrew, campaign to get a rule changed if you don't like it. While the rule is in place it has to be acted on, otherwise we have some participants carry on with impunity while others do the right thing under the understanding that they can't afford to break rules.

Riders/trainers, whoever, obeying rules are at a disadvantage if others follow your line of thinking.

AndrewCarter · April 2014

The rule is a joke foisted upon us by a gutless body who wouldn't stand up for racing's participants and as such it should be treated as the bad joke it is. You want to cause a riot or drive punters away in droves start regularly taking races off punters for someone supposedly abusing the whip, yeah I can see that happening in a driving finish in a Group 1. Are you insane, be careful what you wish for.

AndrewCarter · April 2014

They're no exactly enforcing it either to the letter of the law either Diva, it happens every week in in virtually any state at various times, I would suggest that those complaining about it try concentrating on doing their form a little bit better rather than whinging about a rule that is virtually impossible to adjudicate upon properly.

BobbyDavis · April 2014

Andrew Carter the whole point is about whether or not the other runners (especially the 2nd horse just beaten) got an unfair chance to win. Not whether or not the rule is right or wrong or whatever.

tony · April 2014

I see the stewards suspended Jordan Mallyon on Wednesday for excessive whip use.

Is this the first such suspension in WA?

AndrewCarter · April 2014

The stewards don't always get it right in normal protests and you want them to adjudicate on something that no one with the best of intentions can possibly evaluate with any degree of accuracy what benefit horse A may have got in relation to horse B whose rider was punching it out hands and heels.

Plenty of horses resent the whip so the jockey may well have been actually hampering his horse, it's impossible to quantify and no one should have too and my point is that if you try too you're opening up a huge can of worms that's only going to miss punters off and cause them to find something else to bet on and so what happens then, stakes drop because turnover has plummeted.

Import · April 2014

What about instances then such as the Shane Scriven incident in Queensland where he took a rival rider's whip at about the 100m line, with Scriven's horse just beating the other into second?

Should that have been grounds for a protest? Would/should it have been upheld?

Interestingly was also recently watching on Youtube the "Lester Piggott whip incident" in France (in 1979 from memory) where he done the same thing but stewards did intervene.

Import · April 2014

I am aware by the way that Shane Scriven's horse was subsequently disqualified but my understanding was that this was done at a later enquiry. So obviously correct weight was called at the time.

RonaldMcdonald · April 2014

Bring old whips back

trojanhorse · April 2014

RonaldMcdonald said:
Bring old whips back

ronaldMacdonald...Australia like most other countries are recognising that the public is sensitive to horses being hit ....and are making adjustment to rulings. They are dealing with negative perceptions of racing ....
Your comment is ill informed, parochial and is being very silly ....it is glad for world racing that you are a minority number. I am thinking also that your avatar name is not anything to do with seriously ill children's house.

RonaldMcdonald · April 2014

Just my opinion trojanhorse.. Sorry if I offended you

trojanhorse · April 2014

Thank you RonaldMacdonald no need for apology ....I respect your right to opinion.....but on this occasion I am not agreeing.

the_truth · April 2014

There will NEVER be a whip protest upheld in this country IMO for a simple reason.

First you need to prove hitting them more/harder makes them go faster - without that how can you uphold a protest. Just because the horse was hit more times than another...what does that prove?

The whip rule was brought in for welfare reasons, not because whipping them too much makes them go faster.

RIO · April 2014

it proves the horse won by breaking the rules of racing.....the whip rule - as you call it - is just that. A rule.

how about i send out a jockey with 56kg instead of 56.5kg...its just another pesky rule of racing...

the_truth · April 2014

You missed the point RIO. Giving the horse less weight/going out with less weight would 'likely' allow it to run faster...something that hitting them with a stick doesnt do.

RIO · April 2014

you miss the point...its a rule of racing

the_truth · April 2014

So is saluting when you return to scale but they wont uphold a protest for that.

Its a rule because its a welfare issue. It is not a racing issue. End of story.

RIO · April 2014

Is saluting a rule of racing????? @Legless your the rules guru, can you find that one for us and quote the number - or paste the link - in all that RWWA guff?

primemover · April 2014

I agree with Rio, if they can fine or suspend you for whip breach's then it is a rule of racing, therefore if a horse wins in a tight finish and it's rider flogged it (breaching the whip rule) and the beaten horse was ridden within in the rules then the connections or rider of said beaten horse should have every right to protest.

primemover · April 2014

For example as it stands now Jockeys ,owners & trainers have the right to view race film to decide if they want to protest, so if either of them feel that the other horse was hit too many times ,then they should be able to confront stewards to look at film before correct weight is announced.

RIO · April 2014

i can find the whip rule under rule 137A, but i cant find the saluting the judge one!!

(2)

Only whips of a design and specifications approved by a panel appointed by the Australian

Racing Board may be carri

ed in trackwork.

(3)

The Stewards may penalise any rider who in a race,

official

trial

, jump

-

out

or trackwork, or

elsewhere uses his whip in an excessive, unnecessary or improper manner.

(4)

Without affecting the generality of subrule (3) of this

rule,

the Stewards may penalise any rider

who in a race

, official

trial

, jump

-

out

uses his whip

–

(a)

forward of his horse’s shoulder or in the vicinity of its head; or

(b)

using an action that raises his arm above shoulder height; or

(c)

when his horse is out of co

ntention; or

(d)

when his horse is showing no response; or

(e)

after passing the winning post; or

(f)

causing injury to his horse; or

(g)

when his horse is clearly winning ; or

(h)

has no reasonable prospect of improving or losing its position, or

(i)

in such manner that the sea

m of the flap is the point of contact with the horse, unless

the

rider satisfies

the Stewards that this was neither deliberate nor reckless

Legless · April 2014

RIO said:
Is saluting a rule of racing????? @Legless your the rules guru, can you find that one for us and quote the number - or paste the link - in all that RWWA guff?

Not sure that it is in the rules - will have a look when I have a couple of hours spare =))

There is 2 meanings I know of
- when a horse wins you will hear people say "so and so horse salutes the judge"
- its a tradition - jockeys do it when they return to let the stipes know that they are not considering a protest i.e all clear

RIO · April 2014

hasn't happened PM, but i'd assume it eventually will and the example you use is the perfect situation...also where i raised an initial question from,,,Can the stewards raise the protest on behalf of the punters? unlikely, but an interesting discussion....going back to find the saluting rule..

Legless · April 2014

RIO said:
Can the stewards raise the protest on behalf of the punters?

Stewards can object under AR.164

G'day Punter!

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