Essendon call in ASADA

Carlosa · April 2015

I am terrible at maths, can someone tell me what a thousand divided by 34 is? Then that answer divided by 30 please?

An interesting read from The Australian:

When the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority was desperate for a scalp and the AFL was searching for a way out of its protracted drugs scandal, it took a mother’s instinct to prevent her son from making a terrible mistake.

Stewart Crameri, a former Essendon forward traded to the Western Bulldogs after the Bombers’ ill-fated 2012 season, may well have pleaded guilty and fractured the resolve of former teammates accused of doping had his mother not intervened.

Crameri does not believe he took a banned substance as part of Stephen Dank’s 2012 regime yet the AFL’s speculative offer in January this year of an eight-week ban for a guilty plea was sorely tempting.

Rather than face the uncertain outcome of an AFL tribunal hearing, the talented forward could guarantee his availability for his new club for most of the season.

To understand what was on offer, he need only consider NRL players already back in training after serving token bans.

Crameri’s lawyer, Patrick Gordon, the son of Bulldogs president Peter Gordon, was worried about the strength of the case against his client. Crameri’s father Bernie just wanted the saga to end for his son.

Mandy Crameri, a 59-year-old former schoolteacher from the Victorian country town of Maryborough, was having none of it. “We talked about it as a family,” she told The Australian. “I kept coming back and saying no, you can’t take a deal, you have got to keep pushing through. If you take a deal you will pull everyone down with you. You have got to keep hoping that the truth will eventually come out.”

When ASADA first offered a six-month deal to all 34 players in June last year, it paid special attention to Crameri in the belief he would be more likely to cop a plea than footballers still playing at Essendon. ASADA expected Crameri to jump at the offer of a six-week ban and for others to quickly follow. It didn’t believe it would ever have to prove its case at a hearing.

What ASADA didn’t realise is Mrs Crameri held no fear for what its investigation had found. In February 2012, when Essendon players were asked to sign consent forms to be administered with four substances including the Thymosin peptide at the centre of the doping case, Crameri took the form home to his mum. Together, mother and son researched the various substances and checked their status on the WADA website. Mrs Crameri says their belief then and now is the Thymosin administered by Mr Dank was a natural supplement also known as Thymomodulin. “I am a great believer in eating properly and doing the right thing by your body,” she said. “I couldn’t see there was any problem with it.”

Mrs Crameri believes ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt’s rhetoric since the collapse of the doping case continues to distort what happened at Essendon. Mr McDevitt has accused Essendon of treating its players like pincushions by administering “hundreds if not thousands of injections”.

Mrs Crameri said injections were only a problem if they contained banned drugs.

SHOVHOG · April 2015

Bookielover you're a real sweetheart caring for those 34 players. ... Just a beautiful man.

I'm on board with you now mate I have seen the errors of my way.

Now let's destroy all of them ... Dank , Hird and that imposter Reid . Kill em all I wanna taste danks blood on my tongue.

darkshines · April 2015

Only time will tell if the penalties Bombers got from the AFL for the scheme were appropriate. If something did happen in the future (ie player health issues), the resultant litigation would probably end the Club.

Again, dont mind the players getting off, but the more info comes out, the worse Essendon and Hird come off. It is staggering that a bloke like Hird would even be accepted as an MBA student, given how he 'administrated' at Essendon.

SHOVHOG · April 2015

In all seriousness though I'm glad this case is closed. If Essendon sacked Hird from the start it would never have gotten this far. McDevitt and ASADA are a bunch of incompetent clowns.

The single thing that changed this saga was Hird thumbing his nose at some of the most powerful people on the afl commission and stabbing David Evans in the back.

Bookie lover you have articulated yourself very well as has Fastmoney , carlosa etc etc. I hate Essendon mainly because I am a hawthorn member but I have sided with them for the most part with the exception of James Hird who I thought took the wrong approach. One day the truth will come out and this thread will come to life.

Tivers · April 2015

The case is closed ?

Fastmoney · April 2015

Tivers said:
The case is closed ?

Possible appeal on its way.

Fastmoney · April 2015

The fundamental problem with the whole case is that ASADA considered the club to be a disgrace (already penalized by the AFL) but their only avenue of prosecution was to attack the players.

Then they pretend the players welfare is their priority.

Don`t know how McDevitt (bookielover`s man) sleeps at night.

bookielover · April 2015

Because those weak gutless bacteria, Dank, Charter and Alavi, refused to testify and confirm what McDevitt knows to be true,that Dank injected the players with the illegal Thymosin Beta-4, I would think that he would not be sleeping well at night.

I reckon that the Tribunal members who said in their report that the Thymosin that was injected into the Essendon player was not the legal one, but were not "comfortably satisfied" that it was definitely the illegal one, which really doesn't make sense, would also be having an uncomfortable nights sleep.

Anyone with a decent moral compass, who is concerned that an illegal drug not fit to be injected into human beings has in fact been injected into those human beings, would not be able to sleep at night.

I'm sure that you swell with pride, and even get a stirring in your loins, Fast Money, knowing that you join with Dank, Charter and Alavi, who totally lack any moral compass, who, like you,also have no trouble at all sleeping at night, because they join with you in not giving a stuff about the health and future welfare of the players.

bookielover · April 2015

Your sarcasm, Shovhog, does you no credit.

I'm a parent and grandparent, and if I was a parent or grandparent off an Essendon player, unlike you and Carlosa and Fast Money, I would be have spent many sleepless nights over the last two years not knowing what had been injected into my child or grandchild.

Yes, I would be happy at the not guilty verdict and the opportunity to see my son/grandson play, but the sleepless nights would still continue until such time as I had a definitive answer as to what were in those injections.

That definitive answer has not been forthcoming despite continuing pleadings from the club and its President.

I'm happy to be criticised, every day of the week, for displaying a caring attitude towards the Essendon players, even though I am a Carlton supporter.

This issue goes above bias for a team. This issue goes to the very heart of what being a concerned parent, or just someone who actually cares about an innocent persons health and welfare is all about.

I am sad for you, Fast Money and Carlosa who is a parent, that you don't have the slightest bit of compassion in your hearts to understand or appreciate this fact.

Carlosa · April 2015

Charter and Alavi did testify. You just continue to be wrong and it isnt worth even attempting a serious conversation on this issue with you. Hasn't been for a long time.

So don't confuse sarcasm with a lack of care for the players...

Carlosa · April 2015

And even worse, and again contrary to what the still vocal chorus sing above, the false testimony of alavi and charters was considered by the tribunal.

Yep, that's right, ASADA essentially presented false evidence and still could not get these bogus charges to stick

Carlosa · April 2015

And finally, if you care so much BL, do something! instead of coming on to some little bloody racing forum populated by about 50 people (no offense anyone) pretending to be oh so worried, call the Club, of find a parent. I did.

You don't fool me with your repeated nonsense; you don't give two hoots about the players, your actions on here prove that!

bookielover · April 2015

Carlosa, it took you three posts to make your point, so, I'll deal with number three first.

So, you rang the club. Whoopeedo. You and about 10,000 others who would have called offering your support for the egomaniac Jimmy Hird under whose watch and with whose imprimatur the disgraceful injecting regime took place.

And, along with those 10,000 you probably said, " tell the players that I reckon they will get off, and tell them that even though I have got no friggin idea what was in the injections, I am positive that everything is o.k, so let the players know, that Carlosa is an expert in the long term effects of unknown substances on the body, and they have no need to worry."

Because, Carlosa, that's what you believe, so other than expressing moral support for Jimmy, and expressing the hope that the players would have been found not guilty, which they were, you didn't give a stuff about their future health and welfare, because according to you, even though you have no idea what they were given, there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

I hold an alternative view, and if I was a medical practitioner, an expert in the field, I would have offered my services. I am not, and anyway, I see that the Players Association has got things well in hand as far as looking after the players future health, is concerned.

I have, unlike you and others, been consistent in expressing my concern for the players, once it became clear to all, except you and them, that no one has got any idea what the players copped.

The fact that you think this forum is inconsequential, is both insulting to the "about 50 people" who take the trouble to post, and irrelevant to the opinions given on it.

Now for your first two posts.

The only one who is wrong here, is you.

Charter and Alavi, as you say, did testify before ASADA. BUT, when they were asked to give sworn testimony before the Tribunal, they refused. Not only that, but despite the best efforts of ASADA who went to Court in order to compel Charter and Alavi to give sworn testimony before the Tribunal, the Court ruled in favour of Charter and Alavi.

SO, the only testimony that the Tribunal could go on, was that given by Charter and Alavi at the ASADA inquiry.

Contrary to your second post, the Tribunal, accepted their testimony, and even though you may believe that it was "false testimony", the Tribunal did not.

They accepted that Charter imported the illegal Thymosin Beta-4 from China, and they further accepted that the Thymosin Beta-4 was sent to compound pharmacist Nima Alavi who, after performing his magic, then sent it to Dank.

Where the Tribunal could not be "comfortably satisfied" having accepted Charter and Alavi's evidence, was that the Thymosin beta-4 which the Tribunal accepted was in Dank's possession, found its way into the veins of the Essendon players. The only reason that they could not make that connection, was because records have mysteriously disappeared, and Dank also refused to testify.

So if anyone needs to get their facts right, it's you.

I'll continue to enjoy posting on this site. I enjoy it.

You reckon it's a "little bloody racing forum populated by about 50 people".

Obviously, this forum is not worthy of your intelligent, brilliant, insights.

I am sure that should you decide to leave, your parting will not be missed.

Fastmoney · April 2015

For all your pointless drivel about individual`s morals, players future health, what you would do if you were a parent, Hird, Little, Alavi, Charter and everything and anyone else, the 2 year case by ASADA has no effect on any of it.

All your pages of grandstanding about player future health concerns, then you support the ASADA case whose only possible outcome was to punish the players you wanted protected.

Weird logic.

bookielover · April 2015

My first concern, Fast Money, was, that if the players were found to have received illegal drugs, they and all those responsible, should have the full force of the law brought down upon them. I left that decision up to the relevant authorities.

ASADA and WADA have yet to announce if they will appeal. If they do, and are successful, and the players are found guilty, irrespective of my feelings as to their futures, they and those responsible, should be adequately punished.

If ASADA and WADA appeal, and lose the appeal, then the players not guilty verdict will stand, and as I have said before, good luck to them if that happens.

Thus far, they are not guilty, and that verdict will stand if ASADA and WADA do not appeal, and, as I always do, while I may not agree with the umpires decision, I will accept it.

Why am I not surprised, that you are totally unable to distinguish between my desire to punish the players because they have broken the law, while irrespective of whether or not they have broken the law, being concerned about their future health and well-being.

Only a man like yourself totally lacking in compassion, would fail to understand this.

Another poster called you the "biggest flog on this forum"

Methinks he was being generous.

Fastmoney · April 2015

bookielover said:
My first concern, Fast Money, was, that if the players were found to have received illegal drugs, they and all those responsible, should have the full force of the law brought down upon them. I left that decision up to the relevant authorities.

ASADA and WADA have yet to announce if they will appeal. If they do, and are successful, and the players are found guilty, irrespective of my feelings as to their futures, they and those responsible, should be adequately punished.

How will those you consider responsible be punished?

Guilty verdict punishes players only.

Simple short answer would be appreciated.

Fastmoney · April 2015

bookielover said:

Another poster called you the "biggest flog on this forum"

Methinks he was being generous.

Thanks
:) :)

Carlosa · April 2015

Same old same old...

Quite frankly, Ive done more to show i care more about the players than you, I've done more to understand what really happened than you and i know more than you.

You are the king of putting words in people's mouth...it's an arrogant habit and you just render yourself not worthy of debating. Your points are repeated even after they're shown as false. You answer questions by attacking or attempting to undermine the questioner. Pathetic.

You fool a lot on here, but not me.

bookielover · April 2015

Fast Money, if found guilty, in my opinion, they should be suspended. A minimum of 3 matches, as far as I'm concerned, that's what the Cronulla boys got.

Ultimately, of course, it will be in the hands of whichever authority is appointed to make that decision, if an appeal goes ahead and a guilty verdict is brought down. And if that authority was to decided that no penalty should be imposed, as I said, I will accept the judges decision.

Carlosa, unlike you, I do not profess to be the font of all knowledge on this subject, I just post my thoughts on the facts as they are presented. However, for someone who professes to "know" more than me, I seem to be able to prove that you have got your facts wrong every time, including this time.

I don't need to put words into peoples mouths, if necessary, in order to debate on the issue, I just repeat here what they say on this forum. Your own words serve well to condemn you, and to prove you wrong, and I don't need to either embellish or elaborate on them.

In this case, you said I didn't know the facts, and you put up your version of the "facts". I was then, able to prove, based on the actual facts, that you were wrong.

Instead of coming back at me and let me and everyone else on this forum know where I've got it wrong, you can't, and resort to saying "same old, same old". That is symptomatic of someone who can't admit that they have got it wrong.

Your problem, Carlosa, is that you are so blinkered biased towards your football club, that you can't see the wood for the trees.

Mind you, for all that, even though you haven't specified what you have done to show that you care more for the players than me, if you are being genuine about that, I say well done.

Fastmoney · April 2015

Fastmoney said:

bookielover said:
My first concern, Fast Money, was, that if the players were found to have received illegal drugs, they and all those responsible, should have the full force of the law brought down upon them. I left that decision up to the relevant authorities.

ASADA and WADA have yet to announce if they will appeal. If they do, and are successful, and the players are found guilty, irrespective of my feelings as to their futures, they and those responsible, should be adequately punished.

How will those you consider responsible be punished?

Wasn`t referring to the players.

Bearing in mind Cronulla have the same coach that was there when the drug controversy occurred.

bookielover · April 2015

Sorry, misunderstood.

Good question. The club was fined 2 mill lost premiership points and didn't play in the finals.

Hird wasn't really punished at all, 800 grand and a holiday in France.

Evans, and others have resigned. Is it worth going after them? I'd have to think about that.

Can Hird be forced to resign, or does a sort of double jeopardy apply in that he's been punished once already, if you can call it a punishment.

The ones who need to be really punished are Dank, Charter and Alavi for the supply, compounding and injecting of the drug. I'd jail them but that's me.

The bottom line for me, is that I would like to see the full, force of the law brought down upon them, whatever the sentence and punishments that the law allows.

Anyway, FM. Hypothetical questions aren't easy to answer, so let's see what happens if there is an appeal and it's successful, and go from there.

If there is no appeal, then as I say, the Judges decision will be final and no correspondence will be entered into.

Fastmoney · April 2015

Some of those mentioned, had involvement at Cronulla where they pleaded guilty yet they haven`t been penalized.

Using your 3 week player suspension scenario if the decision is overturned and potentially no penalties for anyone else. surely this whole investigation would have to be the biggest waste of time and resources in sporting history.

bookielover · April 2015

I don't believe it was a waste of time even if it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the players were NOT injected with an illegal, or multiple illegal substances.

The problem faced by ASADA, the Tribunal and ultimately the players, is that you have in Stephen Dank, a morally bankrupt, egotistical, individual, bereft of any conscience, who cares about no one but himself, and who, in order to protect himself, will not reveal what drugs were injected.

What we have learnt from this, is that the EFC totally abrogated their duty of care to the players, but what we haven't learnt is what was in the drugs.

That last fact alone, should send a shudder up the spine of every player and their families, who could be living with a health time bomb.

If nothing else comes out of this, at least ever sporting club around Australia is on notice that their duty of care to their employees is paramount, and they can suffer severe consequences if they abrogate that responsibility.

Fastmoney · April 2015

bookielover said:

If nothing else comes out of this, at least ever sporting club around Australia is on notice that their duty of care to their employees is paramount, and they can suffer severe consequences if they abrogate that responsibility.

That already happened when Essendon were penalized for governance issues.

ASADA can only punish players.

ASADA`s unsuccessful prosecution adds nothing to what has happened but as long as it makes you happy BL thats the main thing.

SPUDLEY · April 2015

Surely we can all agree on 1 thing

Hird is a dodgy piece of work
Dank is a lying piece of dog turd
Charter is a piece of scum
Alavi the mad professor

Personally I would like all 4 to be strung out over a meat ant nest.

BlacksAFake · April 2015

1 game further away from a flag :>

AndrewCarter · April 2015

Just digressing a little, it's interesting what you say about coke I stopped drinking coke and virtually all soft drinks except for the very occasional lemonade ( I might have a glass or two about once every three months if that) about three or four years ago because of something I read on the net which was the final straw. I knew coke was very, very, bad for you but when I discovered that the stuff used to spread the flavour and colour evenly throughout the drink is also a fire retardent and known carcinogen that was more than enough for me.
I think in that whole time not a drop of Coke or Pepsi has touched my lips except for once when I went to the movies and had a frozen coke.
Now I just drink water, milk with my cereal and orange juice (the good stuff that is, not the crap) and either lime juice or bickfords lemon barley cordial.
I still get a craving every now and then for a Pepsi or Coke but I resist it, sometimes it's not easy on a hot day when you walk past a fridge with an icy cold Pepsi but I just think back to that uni study I came across.
Don't even get me started on how bad Fanta and Mountain Dew are and I used to enjoy them as well.
They reckon that one day soft drink manufacturers will be regarded with the same derision and contempt as cigarette companies are now currently.

Anyway back to your flogging of a long dead horse.

bookielover · April 2015

At the risk of flogging a dead horse.

There is an excellent discussion in today's Sunday Herald Sun, between, John Anderson and Mark Robinson, about the Essendon saga. The one thing that they agree on, is that Thymosin Beta 4 could have been administered to the players.

But some other interesting questions are raised, by Robinson, who points out that the Carlton players visited the offsite injecting joint, Hypermed, and that Dank was at the Gold Coast, and you do have to wonder whether or not there has ever been an inquiry into these events, and if not, why not?

There is another article written by John Pierik in today's Sunday Age, which says that ASADA may appeal the Essendon verdict, "as the professional history of the man who would have the ultimate say in an appeals hearing, could mean he has a different interpretation on the ruling of "comfortable satisfaction".

According to the article, Mcdevitt is considering appealing the ruling because, and I quote, "the ruling found that while the Tribunal was "comfortably satisfied" under rule 16.1 of the anti-doping code that biochemist Shane Charter sourced what he believed to be Thymosin Beta-4 from China, and pharmacist Nima Alavi compounded what he believed to be the drug, and Alavi gave the programs architect, Stephen Dank, 26 vials of what he believed to be the same drug, the tribunal was not satisfied that this was indeed fact."

Lawyer Natalie Hickey, believes that Peter O'Callaghan Q.C, whom, I am proud to say I know very well, and his deputy Brian Collis, Q.C. whom I don't know, may have have a different interpretation re the "comfortable persuasion" test.

As Natalie Hickey points out, "Logic dictates. Yes, the comfortable persuasion test goes to the degree of persuasion of the mind. And we all have different comfort levels.Simply to illustrate, David Jones has a strong legal background in crime. Peter O'Callaghan has a strong legal background in civil matters.O'Callaghan's extensive practice is across the board encompassing commercial matters of all kind, many Royal Commissions, boards of inquiry, mediation's and arbitration's."

"One should ask the question, whether a person used to the criminal test, is harder to persuade than someone used to the civil test. This is exactly the question a litigator will ask when deciding whether or not to appeal".

"With all the evidence available to the Tribunal, I find it very difficult to accept the "comfortably persuaded" test, invoked by Mr. Jones and the Tribunal."

Peter O'Callaghan appeared for me many years ago in a civil matter. He is an absolute gentleman, possessed of a sharp legal brain. He is certainly not afraid to advise his clients whether or not he believes they can win. He is probably the fairest man that I have come across when handing down decisions in matters of mediation and arbitration.

I had no idea that an appeal by ASADA would be heard by the AFL appeals tribunal.

If ASADA did launch an appeal, and O'Callaghan dismissed the appeal, knowing Peter as I do, I would accept the decision without any hesitation.

Fastmoney · April 2015

And all that for the players to get a 3 week suspension and anything else unlikely to change.

bookielover · April 2015

As Doris day once sang, with a remake by Normie Rowe, Que Sera Sera 8->

G'day Punter!

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