Essendon call in ASADA

Carlosa · April 2015

Has there been an inquiry into the events? Have you even looked into Dank’s SCN?

Carlosa · April 2015

Not that this is news to anyone seriously looking at yhis issue:

The charges involving Carlton relate to a high-profile coach no longer working at the club. ASADA alleges that Dank provided one or more of human growth hormone, SARMs, Hexarelin, Mechano Growth Factor and CJC-1295 to the coach between March and October 2012.

bookielover · April 2015

Carlosa, your anger jumps off the computer screen at me and probably everyone else.

By the way, if it's anything at all, it's allegations, not charges.

The first time I have seen anything in print about this issue, by that I mean in a newspaper, was when I read in today's Sunday Herald Sun, that Mark Robinson mentioned something about Carlton and the Gold Coast's possible involvement with Dank, in similar activities to Essendon, I posed the question in my last post, if there hasn't been an inquiry, why not?

Unlike you Carlosa, my bias towards my footy team only goes so far.

Carlton cheated for years on the salary cap, and copped their right whack. We lost Goddard and Wells the number one and two picks, got fined a million when a million was worth more then than it is now, and I don't reckon we have ever recovered.

However, as I keep saying, the law of the land is the law, so if you do the crime, you do the time.

My question remains, why has there been no inquiry about this issue? I have never heard of one. If there has been, what was the outcome?

I have got no idea what you mean by SCN, and frankly it doesn't matter.

The fact is, Carlosa, you can get as angry as you like about this, maybe even more angry than I am in finding it absolutely incredulous, that Stephen Dank cannot be brought before any authority and ordered to produce a definitive list of the peptides/drugs, that he injected into the Essendon players.

However, like me, anger gets us nowhere when the authorities in whom we place our trust to inquire into such matters, either don't do so, or when they do, are hamstrung by antiquated laws which place the rights of an individual, before the rights of those that the individual affected.

I don't reckon that either of us will ever have our concerns allayed.

Yes, depending on ASADA and WADA, I will know in around 35 days whether or not the Essendon saga is either at an end or ongoing. As I have said, if there is no appeal, as unhappy as I am for the players not knowing what they were given, I will accept the umpires decision of not guilty. But I will pray that Dank never gets to practice again.

At least, I'll have some sort of closure on this issue.

I fear that, on the other hand, you, who are obviously very angry and just as passionate as I have been about the Essendon case in wanting the allegations made against Dank and Carlton and Dank and the Suns to be the subject of an inquiry, will not get your wish, unless there is an incredible about turn on the part of the AFL.

Two or three wrongs, never make a right, Carlosa.

What went on at Essendon was according to their own Ziggy report, and the ASADA report, and the Tribunals report, disgraceful.

The fact that the AFL as far as we know are not investigating allegations against Dank and Carlton and Dank and the Suns, doesn't make what went on at Essendon right.

But, yes, Carlosa, your anger at their inaction, is certainly justified.

Carlosa · April 2015

Just putting the facts out there, mate.

SHOVHOG · April 2015

Speaking of Carlton and salary cap justice when will they be stripped of the 1995 premiership?

BlacksAFake · April 2015

Probably same time Essendon are stripped of '93 for same reason :-*

Precision · April 2015

Stephan Dank on channel 601 right now with Alan Jones.

Legless · April 2015

Precision said:
Stephan Dank on channel 601 right now with Alan Jones.

Why wasn't he asked how many injections he gave?

Fastmoney · April 2015

Legless said:

Precision said:
Stephan Dank on channel 601 right now with Alan Jones.
Why wasn't he asked how many injections he gave?

A particular number of injections doesn`t make them illegal.

Legless · April 2015

Fastmoney said:

Legless said:

Precision said:
Stephan Dank on channel 601 right now with Alan Jones.
Why wasn't he asked how many injections he gave?
A particular number of injections doesn`t make them illegal.

I don't see anywhere where I indicated or implied that it does ( or doesn't for that matter).

And not the point I was trying to make -

In a report I have read, Dank said -"The appalling part of all that is that you've had a number of people ... for them to simply, loosely, throw around numbers (of injections), and quote numbers, to me is a blatant disregard to what evidence is there," he said.

"In some ways, it is direct character assassination - and that's fine, we'll meet that head-on in court."

Now to me (and I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed) if I was interviewing someone and they stated the above - the 1st question to be asked is -
Well then - how many injections were actually given?

Smacks of pre- arranged questions to me :-?

Fastmoney · April 2015

Keep cheering for the appeal.

Legless · April 2015

personally am hoping there is no appeal. Game has suffered enough because of the injection regime at the Essendon Football Club. Time to move on.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck , quacks like a duck, its a fuckin' duck and I for one do not need a kick and giggle tribunal to confirm that for me

Fastmoney · April 2015

Players have suffered enough.

Legless · April 2015

Agreed.

The game had no say nor control whatsoever over the caning it has copped.

No-one held a gun at the players head and told them to present their arms as pin cushions.

I also read that Dank also says -
"We kept quite a deal of paperwork, for want of a better term, at the football club," he said.

"That particular paperwork was crucial to the management of the program.

"I left them with Essendon on the day I left the football club ... they are the property of Essendon."

"They have obviously somehow disintegrated, because those records were intact and complete," he said.

If he is to be believed then the players knew exactly what they were being injected with and all they had to do to avoid the prolonged investigation was say what it was.

Like the saying goes - You made your bed .......

Fastmoney · April 2015

Legless said:

No-one held a gun at the players head and told them to present their arms as pin cushions.

And do you think no other clubs and their players were doing the same thing?

Legless · April 2015

have absolutely no idea - I would hazard a guess and say if they were it was nowhere near to the same extent.

I am a believer of " bend the rules as far as you can - without breaking them"

There is 2 issues here -

Essendon broke those rules and were handed the harshest penalties ever dished out - fair bump, play on! - so to speak.

The 2nd one is the question of illegal substances which I do not think will ever be resolved

Fastmoney · April 2015

Carlosa · April 2015

Seriously guys, the only thing you can take at face value through this whole thing are the docs released under discovery through the Hird/Essendon court action.

Everything else, from any angle, is agenda driven and biased at best, and downright fiction at worst.

thefalcon · April 2015

go and brush your red and black beanie, carlosa... =))

SPUDLEY · April 2015

Hey Carloosa what's the world look like with your head under the surface. =))

Carlosa · April 2015

Looks delightful Spud!!

bookielover · April 2015

On Monday, Allan Jones on Sydney radio, did one of his usual rants. This time saying, that the day the Labor Government surrounded by officials from ASADA, a bevy of politicians etc. announce that it was the blackest day in Australian sport because Australian Sport was rife with drug taking, was in fact, a complete joke, and nothing could be further from the truth. He also said that the ASADA investigation of Essendon was a complete waste of time.

The very next day, an article in the Murdoch press, stated that since that announcement, more than 200 Sports people had been found to have taken illegal drugs.

So much for Allan Jones and his rant.

There was no way, that Dank was going to be asked the really hard questions by Jones, that the interview demanded, and Peter Beatty lives in Queensland and wouldn't have the knowledge about what has gone on to ask the right questions.

Legless. Like you, and 99% of those here on PTT who have a moral compass, I have been concerned about four issues relating to the Essendon saga.

In no particular order they are:

Issue 1. The number of injections given to the Essendon players, anywhere between 2,000 and 4,000 depending on which report you read.

Issue 2. The fact that to this day, we still have no idea exactly what was injected into the players.

Issue 3. Did the players receive any illegal substances?

Issue 4. The need for the Essendon football club to appoint qualified medical practitioners to monitor the ongoing health and welfare of the players.

For those like Fast Money, whom I have labeled previously as totally lacking a moral compass, and whose posts continue to reaffirm my opinion, the only thing that has ever mattered in this whole saga, is issue number 3. Did the players receive any illegal substances??

The Tribunal stated that even though they had a historical time line tracing the importation of the illegal Thymosin-Beta 4 from China into the hands of Stephen Dank, they were "not comfortably satisfied" that he had injected that particular drug into the Essendon players.

What is interesting to note, is that the Tribunal did not use the words, "beyond any reasonable doubt", or "we are absolutely positive," to describe their position.

I accept, that unless their is an appeal, at this point in time, the players are not guilty.

However, anyone who believes that using the words "not comfortably satisfied", is a ringing endorsement of the practices of Stephen Dank, is seriously deluded.

As far as Fast Money is concerned, and to quote Jack little from the 1960's wrestling shows on Channel 9, "that's all there is, there isn't anymore".

It is only people who have a genuine care and compassion for others, like many on here, who are concerned with issues 1, 2, and 4.

In fact, as I said, Essendon are so concerned for their players ongoing health, that they have appointed people to continuously monitor the effects or otherwise that the injections may have on the players, and have promised the parents that that monitoring will continue long after the players have left the club. Let us hope it is a promise they keep.

Unfortunately, Legless, you can pose all the questions you want, but when you are dealing with a skank like Dank, you aren't going to get any answers.

But at least you can be assured by Fast Money, that all is well with Essendon, and their players, and Jimmy, and every other person who has had to resign in disgrace from the Essendon Football Club, because there has been a not guilty verdict handed down. Not even the Ziggy report commissioned by the club, and so damning of it, will convince him otherwise.

And then you have Carlosa........

:)) :)) :))

Fastmoney · April 2015

Thanks BL

Appreciate your informed assessment of my character.

L-) L-)

Carlosa · April 2015

Ah if only I could be bothered...I'll dissect your post, and all its errors, tomorrow from work, BL.

bookielover · April 2015

"informed assessment". Thank you for the compliment FM. Glad you agree with it.
:D

And Carlosa

:)) :)) :))

Fastmoney · April 2015

bookielover said:
"informed assessment". Thank you for the compliment FM. Glad you agree with it.
:D

And Carlosa
:)) :)) :))

Sarcasm wasted on the stupid.

bookielover · April 2015

In your case FM, what you believed to be "sarcasm" on your part, was, in fact, the truest statement about yourself that you have posted in a long, long, time.

And for that, you deserve our grateful thanks, appreciation, and applause.

=D> =D>

Fastmoney · April 2015

http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/04/16/essendon-vs-asada-when-news-reporting-is-hijacked-by-opinion/

Carlosa · April 2015

As promised BL….you do make this easy given your penchant for lies. Next time, can I just go back to saying you talk rubbish or will you have another teary? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

“Murdoch press…more than 200 Sports people had been found to have taken illegal drugs”

Really? I don’t know what article you’re referring to, but it is wrong. The ASADA website show 45 sanctions (this is not necessarily the full list as they only have to show them for 1 year, but there are plenty up here form well before that so I have assumed it to be complete on that basis). To summarise, 18 for bodybuilding/weightlifting, 9 for rugby, 4 athletics, 3 wrestling, and then 2 or 1 sanction in Baseball, cycling, netball, sprint cars, surf lifesaving, swimming and tennis. Maybe the communications specialist used SCN’s issued by ASADA, or added in rec drug use, to carry on his or her agenda.

“So much for Allan Jones and his rant”

I am no fan of Alan Jones, but you can use 45 with more confidence than the 200 you (and Murdoch) spoke of. I’m not sure 45 sanctions for breaching the WADA code over 2+ years is that alarming, maybe Jones did make a valid point on this one. Certainly Murdoch, and be extension you, did not.

That’s all just your opinion, bending the truth nonsense like usual though, let’s get on to the real stuff:

“Issue 1. The number of injections given to the Essendon players, anywhere between 2,000 and 4,000 depending on which report you read”

Not sure of your point. That stat is concerning on the surface, but I will add some perspective. Let’s go with 3,000 injections, for the 34 players over the 18 months. That is just under 5 injections per month per player. Barely 1 injection per week. It is one of many emotive, alarming statistic that when broken down loses some of its shock value. I think the balance should be added. Does 1 injection per week for a AFL footballer alarm you BL? If what is being injected is legal, that number doesn’t alarm me.

“Issue 2. The fact that to this day, we still have no idea exactly what was injected into the players.”

This will come out eventually, once the appeal periods have concluded. Will probably have to go to a Court though, as the AFL and ASADA won’t release the full truth. It is a sad indictment on the whole saga that it is in the players, and the clubs, best interests to not disagree with this line put forward by ASADA. How can you be proven to have taken a banned substance if no one knows what was taken? I get your point though. The next 3 months will be telling.

“Issue 3. Did the players receive any illegal substances?”

We may all think they did, hell, I reckon plenty of AFL footy players would have at some point or another, but after a 2 plus year investigation, which consisted of 25 investigators conducting 130 interviews lasting 600+ hrs, 1.5 terabytes of data seized, 98,000 text messages and call content analysed, 16 million emails looked at, almost 7 million line entries in financial systems dissected, 29 drug test and steroid profiles conducted and 61 drug tests reviewed, I am fairly certain that the ASADA investigators left no stone unturned in trying to find evidence of such. They didn’t. I‘m not naïve here, as stated above, I reckon most pro athletes are on the good stuff at some point in time (based in part on anecdotal evidence), but this has been one serious investigation, and it netted no proof of doping.

Carlosa · April 2015

“Issue 4. The need for the Essendon football club to appoint qualified medical practitioners to monitor the ongoing health and welfare of the players.” <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

You have no evidence to support this as the reason why this service is being offered; it is opinion, not fact. The service provides a level of comfort and care to the players and affords them a service where they can ask questions, have anything they like checked etc. Their families are free to seek out this service too, and ask anything they please – and have done so. It was the least the Club could do, in what has been a gross display of a poorly managed supplement program. I agree, let’s hope it continues. This is something all clubs should implement In fact, I would like to see an independent body appointed by the AFLPA take the lead here and have a ‘no club influence’ approach to monitoring the health of all players to boost transparency and trust. I’ve relayed on here before the two Mothers of players I have spoken to semi-regularly and I can only say again what they have said to me, they are confident they know what their boys were administered, and they are confident their health will be fine. You can rip that to shreds as much as you like, but that’s their version. Some of the reporting on this part of the saga was particularly stressful to the parents and some journalists need to be ashamed of their actions here. The amount of false claims to supplements and the apparent unknown status of them was disgusting; think Mexican drugs etc.

“The Tribunal stated that even though they had a historical time line tracing the importation of the illegal Thymosin-Beta 4 from China into the hands of Stephen Dank, they were "not comfortably satisfied" that he had injected that particular drug into the Essendon players”.

No they did not. This is typical, but completely wrong The Tribunal accepted ASADA alleged such, but they were not satisfied by any of it. I will elaborate. The parties agreed 3 elements required ‘proving to a level of comfortable satisfaction’ for the case to stick. Those being:

1. TB4 was produced from sources in China,

2. TB4 was obtained by Mr Alavi, compounded and provided to Mr Dank in his capacity as Sports Scientist at Essendon, and

3. Mr dank administered TB4 to players.

ASADA failed to satisfy all three judges that the 1^st and 2^nd elements happened. They did not even consider the 3rd element. That’s right, the evidence was so poor the Tribunal did not even get to the point of considering whether the players were administered a banned substance. I quote, “After considering the submissions of the parties (and) assessing the evidence ... the tribunal is not comfortably satisfied that the 0.25g of the substance purported to be TB4 in the first shipment from China delivered to Mr Alavi was, in fact, TB4.” Further, “Consequently, the Tribunal does not consider it necessary to consider the third element or link in the chain of reasoning, as it is dependent upon the first and second elements or links being established and neither has been established to the comfortable satisfaction of the Tribunal” So your above statement is blatantly false.

“What is interesting to note, is that the Tribunal did not use the words, "beyond any reasonable doubt", or "we are absolutely positive," to describe their position”

This comment shows your gross ignorance on this whole thing. You just do not know what you’re talking about – same with others in this thread banging on about this. This was an anti-doping tribunal, not a court. The findings of an anti-doping tribunal are either ‘comfortably satisfied’ or ‘not comfortably satisfied’. In the same way a Court puts down a finding of ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’, the anti-doping tribunal’s findings shall only be one of the two mentioned. And remember, comfortably satisfied requires less evidence than a guilty finding in a Court, and they still were not comfortably satisfied. So for all those wanting to hear the words ‘not guilty’, it was just simply not an option, technically. And shame on those in the media that have reported this line, as you have, but it just shows the level of ignorance that is out there

G'day Punter!

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